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11353,http://libarchstor2.uah.edu/digitalcollections/items/show/11353,uah_civr_000007,"Digitized VHS tape of ""Huntsville during the Civil Rights Movement.""",,"Sonnie W. Hereford, III, John Cashin Jr., William Pearson, and Fred Carodine were the speakers in this lecture given at Alabama A&M University.","Alabama A & M University^^University of Alabama in Huntsville","University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama",2001-10-25,2000-2009,,,"Hereford, Sonnie W., 1931-2016^^Pearson, William, 1940-2007^^ Carodine, Frederick, 1930-2016 ^^Civil rights movements--Southern states--History--20th century^^Huntsville (Ala.)^^Madison County (Ala.)^^Segregation^^Race discrimination^^African Americans--Legal status, laws, etc.^^Cashin, John L. (John Logan), 1928-2011","Lectures^^Moving Image",MP4,"Lecture Series on Civil Rights in Alabama, 1954-1965
VHS Tape of: Huntsville During the Civil Rights Movement - Speakers Sonnie W. Hereford III, William Pearson, John Cashin Jr., and Fred Carodine, 2001-10-25.Box 2, Tape 7
University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives, Special Collections, and Digital Initiatives, Huntsville, Alabama",,"Huntsville During the Civil Rights Movement - Speakers: Sonnie W. Hereford III, John Cashin Jr., Fred Carodine, and William Pearson - Transcription of Tape 7, 2003 ",,en,"This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,1:54:28,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,http://libarchstor2.uah.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=uah_civr_000007.xml,"Huntsville during the Civil Rights Movement Speakers: Sonnie W. Hereford, III,
John Cashin Jr., Fred Carodine and William Pearson
The committee of professors includes James Johnson and Carolyn Parker from Alabama A&M and professors Mitch Berbrier, John Dimmock, and Lee Williams II of UAH. Our work has also been greatly assisted by Ms. Joyce Maples of UAH's University Relations.
This series would not have been possible without the financial support of numerous sponsors. First and foremost is
The Alabama Humanities Foundation, a state program of the National Endowment for
the Humanities, as well as a number of groups and organizations within the community including The Huntsville Times; DESE Research Inc and Mevatec Corporation. We're grateful also for the assistance provided by Alabama Representative Laura Hall, and by Senator Hank Sanders. Joining out efforts from Alabama A&M is the Office of the President, the Provost, the State Black
Archives Research Center and Museum, Title III Telecommunications and Distance
Learning Center, Office of
Student Development, the A&M Honors program, Sociology/Social Work and the Political Science and History. At UAH, we greatly acknowledge funding from the Office of the President, the Provost, the Humanities Center,The Division of Continuing Education, The Department of Sociology, and the Social Issues Symposium, The Honors Program, the Office of
Multi-Cultural Affairs and Student Affairs, Copy Center, The History Forum and the Bankhead Foundation. I got through that, and I didn't think I would with my voice.
Next week's session, which will be held at UAH will focus on Lowndes County, one of the most deadly arenas of the Civil Rights struggle in Alabama. Our guest will be Mr. John Hulett, a pioneer in the movement to extend voting rights to all Americans, and the founder and first chairman of the Lowndes County Freedom Party, known also as the Black Panthers. Mr. Hulett was the first African-American to be registered in Lowndes County and was later elected sheriff and probate judge. He will be interviewed on stage by the prize-winning journalist Frye Gaillard, author of The Dream Long Deferred, who is currently working on a history of the Civil Rights Movement in Alabama. Now, tonight, our session is one to which I have looked forward for a long time. The focus is on the Civil Rights Movement in Huntsville, particularly the event that
started at least with the first sit-ins of January 3, 1962, which were carried
out largely by students from William Cooper Council High School and Alabama A&M,
many of whom had been recruited by a young man named Henry J. Thomas, who was a
veteran freedom rider and a field agent for the Congress of Racial Equality,
known also as CORE. Thomas also, as some of you may know, had been on the bus
that was firebombed outside of Anderson and was beaten as he exited the bus. For
several months after the initial demonstrations in Huntsville, the movement
mushroomed as students targeted segregated lunch counters throughout the city.
From the list of those arrested appearing in the Huntsville Times, one can
identify around 130 young people who participated repeatedly and over an
extended period of time. Though in her 1965 Master's thesis presented here
at Alabama A&M and entitled ""The Acquisition of Civil Rights in Huntsville,
Alabama from 1962 to 1965,"" Theresa Powers-Shields estimates the number at
actually 400 and the total number of known sit-in demonstrations as 260.
Accompanying this campaign were weekly mass meetings, the formation of a community
service committee, known as PCFC, which was chaired by Reverend Ezekiel Bell.
Despite foot dragging by the mayor and other city leaders, the movement also
succeeded in seeing the appointment of a biracial committee that helped oversee
an end to segregation in public facilities two years before the Civil Rights
Movement of 1964.
The question I propose tonight that we can discuss is how and why did events
occur in this fashion in Huntsville and in what ways was the Huntsville Movement
different from, for that matter similar to, the Civil Rights Movements in other
areas of the state. For background, I will briefly mention just a few facts
starting with the city's rapid rise in population after World War II. In
1960, the population of Huntsville stood at just over 72,000; many of these
young, middle-class professionals were from areas outside the south. That same
year I saw massive infusion of federal funds into the local economy, aided
greatly by the creation in 1958 of the George C. Marshall Space Flight Center
which was charged, as many of you know, with developing launch vehicle systems
to support the lunar landing program. Within four years, Marshall was producing
30 million dollars in local contracts annually and employees of NASA and the
newly arriving aerospace industries were spending another 100 million in
Huntsville. In their book, ""A Power to Explore: A History of the Marshall Space
Flight Center, 1960 to 1990,"" published in 1999, Professors Andrew J. Dunar and
Stephen P. Waring note that because nearly 90 percent of Huntsville's
economy was based on federal funds, Washington had more leverage here than
anywhere else in the state, simply because few business leaders or political
leaders were willing to risk losing such resources. In short, say the authors,
""the gospel of wealth had more disciples in Huntsville than the gospel of
white supremacy."" These facts, no doubt, helped shape the strategies and tactics
of the local Civil Rights Movement, as did the ability of the demonstrators to
turn Cold War rhetoric on its head by noting how America was spending billions
for defense against communism abroad while denying freedom to its own citizens
here at home. The signs carried by protestors on the Huntsville Square echoed
this message. One said that this is the Rocket City USA, let freedom begin here;
another said Khrushchev can eat in this restaurant, but I can't.
Nevertheless, while the success of the local movement owed much to the federal
presence, I believe it also reflected strengths within the black community
itself. Ten thousand strong in 1960, Huntsville's black residents had
developed a powerful sense of community and culture that was flourishing long
before the arrival of NASA and German rocket scientists. It was the leaders of this
community, its ministers, its business leaders, its professionals, tradesmen and
workers, who defined the terms of the Civil Rights struggle and who provided
financial support and council to the students. Their efforts not only helped
break the back of segregation in Huntsville's public facilities but set the
stage for the successful school desegregation suit filed in March of 1963 on
behalf of Sonnie Hereford, IV, Veronica Pearson, Anthony Bruton and Davis Peday.
By the way, Huntsville's sit-ins, poster walks, boycotts and visits from
the nation's top Civil Rights leaders outraged state officials, like
attorney general McDonald Gallion, who succeeded in banning the Congress of
Racial Equality from the state, and certainly Governor John Patterson who forced
the retirement of Alabama's A&M president of 35 years, Joseph F. Drake.
At the local level, business and professional leaders seemed stunned as they
witnessed the exploding myth of racial harmony in the much-vaunted progressive
environment of Madison County. Their surprise may have been an indication of how
little they really knew about the black community, a fact that is easily
confirmed by one of my students, by the almost complete absence of positive
reporting in the local press on the achievement of African-Americans here in
Madison County during the 3 or 4 decades prior to 1960. Initial reaction to the
sit-ins was thus to be expected. In an editorial from July 9, 1962, the
Huntsville Times accused black leaders of threatening, ""to harm
Huntsville's position in the highly competitive race for industrial and
intellectual development."" Similarly, a resolution of the Huntsville
Minister's Association stressed the economic progress the city had made as
the space capital of America and added, ""We do not want this image marred by the
struggle in human relations that is going on throughout America and around the
world."" Yet, as Dunar and Waring had pointed out, despite its liberal
reputation, at least in comparison to the county's black belt. Huntsville,
its schools, hospitals and other public facilities, were rigidly segregated.
Black housing and schools suffered from neglect. Educational and job
opportunities were severely limited. African-Americans, they note, made up
eighteen percent of the city's population, yet were less than one percent
of the work force at Marshall. The fact of the matter, observed one NASA
administrator, is that Huntsville is in Alabama. The Civil Rights Movement here
in Huntsville thus poses numerous questions that I hope we can discuss tonight
with our distinguished panelists and with members of the audience who
were there. To introduce our guests and to moderate the discussion, I would now
like to call on my colleague, Professor Carolyn Parker.
Carolyn Parker: Thank you, Jack. This should prove to be an exciting evening for us.
I'm particularly delighted to have this opportunity to moderate and to
introduce our distinguished panel. Our first presenter for this evening is well
known throughout the city for his work as a medical doctor, Alabama A&M
University and Oakwood College physician, a familiar face on our football field.
He served as team physician in the 1960s, 1970s and l 980s,
as a professor of anatomy at local institutions of higher learning and most
especially, for our purposes tonight, a Civil Rights legend. Dr. Sonnie W.
Hereford, III is a native of Huntsville, Alabama, was educated at Council High
School (my alma mater as well, proud to say), Alabama A&M University and Meharry
Medical College. He distinguished himself by earning highest honors at each
stage of his academic career. He began his practice of general medicine in
Huntsville in 1956. He served as medical director on the Selma to Montgomery
march and assisted Vivian Malone in her quest to enter the University of
Alabama, in Tuscaloosa. Dr. Hereford has received numerous awards for his
contributions to our community, to name a few; Delta Sigma Theta and Zeta Phi
Beta Sororities, the Community Action Agency, the Madison County Midwives
Association, Oakwood College and Alabama A&M University's Athletic
Department. He is a member of Omega Psi Phi Fraternity, the Huntsville Alabama
Hall of Fame and was cited for patriotism and dedication by Redstone Arsenal. In
1999, collaborating with Calhoun Community College, he released a video taped
account of the Civil Rights Movement in Huntsville titled, ""A Civil Rights
Journey."" His son, Sonnie Wellington
Hereford, IV, who is right here, will you stand? Just let them see who you are.
His son Sonnie Wellington Hereford, IV was first to integrate a public school in
Alabama in 1963, what was then called Fifth Avenue School. Dr. Hereford is
married to the former Martha Lynne Adams and they are parents of five daughters
and one son. Dr. Hereford will share with us a summary of the background of the
Civil Rights Movement in Huntsville from his perspective as a highly involved
activist. It is my pleasure to present our first speaker to our audience, Dr.
Sonnie Wellington Hereford, III.
Sonnie W. Hereford, III: Dr. Parker, Dr. Ellis, our distinguished panel, the
esteemed president of this university and also our esteemed provost, our fellow
freedom fighters, students and friends. It is indeed a pleasure for me to be
here with you tonight. We want to talk about Huntsville. Just before I start
talking about Huntsville, I would like to introduce a few more people in the
audience. She stole a little bit of my thunder, I had planned to introduce some
of the people, but I didn't even know Sonnie was going to be here. Sonnie
was at a funeral this afternoon in Kentucky and has driven here to be with us.
But first, let me introduce my president when I was working at Oakwood and he
has come here tonight at my invitation to be with us. Dr. Minette, would you
stand up or hold up your hand, please and let them see you? This is the first
time I've had the pleasure to see him in the last fifteen or sixteen years.
Now, I wanted to just mention my brother who is in the audience, who's been
with me for seventy years. We've been side by side everyday, even in the Civil
Rights Movement. Tom, would you stand up just a minute please and my daughter
who has driven all the way from Shreveport, Louisiana to
be with us tonight. Would you stand up Martha, please? And, Sonnie and
Sonnie's daughter is here, would you stand up please? We have three
generations here.
Thanks very much for inviting me here to be with you tonight to talk about the
Civil Rights Movement in Huntsville. You see, we have sat and we have listened
to the people talk about the Civil Rights Movement in other cities and other
communities and we've heard about the difficulties that they've had.
When some of them spoke, I thought they were writing my autobiography. We were
so much alike, but then, there were some ways in which we were different.
I'd just like to mention to you about three or four instances in which it
seems like we were so much alike. When Ms. Nash talked about going to jail while
she was pregnant, the first thing that came to my mind was my wife went to jail
when she was pregnant. When Attorney Chestnut spoke of those long meetings that
they sat in until the wee hours of the morning, trying to plan, I thought about Dr. Cashin and
how we use to sit in those long, long meetings until the wee hours of the
morning. When Attorney Gray spoke about the out of state fees they paid him to
try to bribe him to not even try to get into the University of Alabama, I
received that out of state fee. They said if you don't try to go to the
University of Alabama, if you'll go to any other college in the United
States, we'll pay you the difference of what it cost you to go to that
college and to go to the University of Alabama. I talked to Dr. Cashin today and
he said his father refused to accept that. He sent him to school and paid his
way. Dr. Woolfolk, just last week, when she spoke about the superintendent of
the schools threatening to fire the teachers, well, we had the same thing here
in Huntsville and it just seems like they were just talking about our movement.
The doctor has told you about my association with
A&M, so I want to let you know that I really feel at home here at A&M. When I
was a teenager, I used to come to the football games here on Saturdays and then
some Saturdays when I couldn't come, I'd be picking cotton in the
cotton field. I could look and I could see Bill Graves. I could hear the band and
wish I was here.
The next thing I want to speak about, the participation of the people. I go
around all over the United States, showing the film and talking to people about
the Civil Rights Movement. Sometimes, I forget to ask about people who have also
participated. Now, how many people do we have here in the audience who have
participated in the Huntsville Civil Rights Movement? May I have a show of
hands, please? Those who actually participated in the Huntsville Civil Rights
Movement. Okay, very good. No how many had relatives who participated, maybe you
weren't old enough to participate, but some of you had ancestors and
relatives who participated. I think there's a hand. Now, how many people do
we have here who've participated in movements in other cities? All right,
let's give them a hand. I see one young man back there who is still
fighting, I know about your fight.
Now, we know that there is nothing on the face of the earth that is as powerful
as a movement whose time has come. I had read about revolutions and my teachers
had taught me about revolutions, but the ones that I knew about they were more
or less bloody revolutions. There were guns involved; there were knives; there
were slings and there were arrows involved. We want to talk to you a little bit
tonight about a nonviolent revolution. We want you to see how powerful a
nonviolent revolution can be. This is
very timely because in a short sixty-nine days from now, we will be celebrating
the 40th anniversary of the beginning of the Huntsville revolution.
I want to talk to you a minute about how Huntsville used to be, before the
movement started and I want to use the format that I used the last time, when I
spoke at the University of Michigan. I started off by telling them how things
were in the community. The schools in Huntsville were completely segregated. We
had poor equipment. We had poor facilities. We had no library, no gym, no
lunchroom, no PE period, no PhD's on the staff, no playground and we had no
laboratories. Some teachers and students may take exception with me on that,
some of the ones who went to Council High, when I say we had no laboratories. We
had a room that said, the inscription above the door, ""Chemistry Laboratory.""
But, if you had gone inside that room, this is what you would have seen. You
would have seen about ten or twelve test tubes, ten or twelve reagent bottles,
one beaker and one Bunsen burner. That is not a laboratory, in my opinion. Now,
I want to show you something. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I
sat down, my wife and I drew this picture. You see where it says ""MS,""
that's my school. You see where it says ""CD,"" that's the city dump.
Now can you imagine how it was? We didn't have air conditioning. Can you
imagine in September and in May how it was to sit in those classrooms when some
of us didn't want to be there in the first place. Can you imagine that?
Now, if it cost me my life, I couldn't tell you which one was put there
first, the city dump or the school, but my contention is that whichever one went
there first, the other one had no business being put there. Do you agree on that?
There were no buses for black children. The buses were for the white children.
The only thing I remember about a school bus is that if it passed by me fast, it
blew dust in my face. If it passed by me slowly, rotten eggs and rotten tomatoes
came from the windows and hit me in the face. That's what I remember about
a school bus. Now, the powers that be took our own tax money and hired the best legal
minds in the United States to keep us from getting our own freedom and the
things that we deserved to keep us from getting the things that we actually
deserved. Now, you've heard the expression on the street, a double whammy.
Well, if it keeps the schools segregated, you automatically keep the boy scouts
and the girl scouts segregated. You see what I mean. Because the troops come
from the schools. And the jobs: The black people were the last to be hired and the
first to be fired. And, then when they were given a job, they had different pay
scales. Just to give an example, a white man and a black man working on the same
job, the black man 25 cents an hour, the white man 40 cents an hour, the same
job. I know you've heard this before, they bring a white person on a job
and ask the black person to train him, a brand new person, and in the next two
weeks the white person is the black man's supervisor. I know you've
heard that before. Now, the jobs that were available were janitor, delivery man,
minister, teacher, porter, errand boy and construction worker, but you could not
have any supervisor position in the construction work. There were no policemen;
no firemen, no bank tellers, no clerks, no meter maids, and no sales people
whatsoever. There were no black people in the national guard, no black people
holding political offices and I was 30-years-old before I saw my first brown
mannequin in a store
window and that was in Honolulu, Hawaii. I had never seen a brown mannequin in
my life, scout's honor.
Voting. We were disfranchised on the basis of illiteracy. Even though some of us
had Bachelor's, Master's and PhD degrees, we were still disfranchised
and this is what one had to do if one wanted to vote. If you go to the
voter's registration place, you had to take someone with you who was
already a registered voter to vouch for you. You had to take a written test, an
oral test and then interpret the Constitution of the United States to the
satisfaction of the examiner. Now, in some cities, if you passed all of that,
they had a jar of jellybeans and then you'd have to guess how many
jellybeans was in the jar. Now, say for instance you pass all of that including
the jellybeans, then you have to go to the courthouse and pay your poll tax.
After you'd done all of that, if you didn't pay your tax, you still
couldn't vote. On the street, they called that a double whammy because if
you are not a registered voter, then you don't get a chance to serve on a
jury. Now, I don't know how it is today but that's the way it used to
be in Huntsville, Alabama. The jury pool was taken from the list of registered
voters and I know that to be true because I called two lawyers yesterday and
asked them about it and I didn't want to come out here and tell you that
if it weren't true.
Now, on public accommodations. There was no access to any of the arenas, no
access to any of the ballparks, skating rinks, the bowling alleys, the golf
course, and not even to the library. You couldn't go to Shoney's and
you couldn't go to McDonald's. I know you would not have liked that.
In the medical community, we had a county here of about 75,000 people,
twenty-five percent black, with 33 white doctors. We had one black
doctor when I came to town. In the town, I made the 35th doctor. All of the
white doctors had separate waiting rooms and then the black patients had to wait
until the white doctors finished their white patients and then they would take a
black patient. I want to relate to you a little incident that one of your
professors here on the campus told me about. He said, ""Dr. Hereford, I went down
to this white doctor's office to take an insurance examination and he said
they told me to be sure and be prepared to give a urine specimen and so I
purposely didn't go to the restroom before I went down there and he said
the nurse gave me a little bottle about that tall and she sent me into the x-ray
room."" He said, ""Dr. Hereford, I didn't mean to wet the doctor's
floor, but when I got through filling the bottle I couldn't stop."" And so,
this is the thing that used to happen to us. The hospital had separate wings for
black and white. On the black wing, they had about 13 to 14 beds and after those
get filled up, then they put patients in the halls. They had to stay in the
hall. After the patients had delivered, all of our post partum patients were
sent in one room, just one big room for all of the postpartum patients, and when
I first got to the hospital they had one room for the emergency room, the
operating room and the delivery room, and you can see how you can run into
problems with that. They had separate pay scales for the workers. All of the
white workers made more than the black workers and they had no place whatsoever
at the hospital for the black doctors, the black nurses and the black workers to
eat. And, nobody seemed to give a damn that they didn't have anywhere for
them to eat. When I started over there, the head of the staff told me,
""Dr. Hereford, you can admit your patient's to the hospital, just like Dr.
Drake does, but now you can't become a member of the staff because in order
to become a member of the
staff, you have to be a member of the county medical association."" Well, in
order to become a member of the county medical association, you had to be white.
So, in that way I couldn't be a member of the staff. He said, ""Now, you
must come to the meetings, but you can't vote, you can't make a motion
and he said be sure you don't come before seven because the white doctors
are going to eat at 6:30 and for God's sake don't come in while
they're eating and if you do come in, don't let that waitress pour you
a cup of coffee."" Now, that's the type of things we had to go through with.
Now, Dr. Ellis is looking at me. I don't know if he's looking at me
about time or not, he says no. I like that. I want to talk to you awhile. Thank
you, Dr. Ellis. Wigs (Nickname of guest speaker William Pearson) yielded five minutes of his time to me.
Well, you finally get tired of having those things. We were eating tonight, we
were sitting at the table and Wigs said yes, sometimes you get tired but sometimes
you can't do it by yourself, you want some help and you want a leader. We
were waiting on a leader. We wanted somebody to get it started, but we
didn't quite know how to get it started and I wanted to do something about
it. I was just sick and tired about how they treated me, not only at the
hospital but all over the city. I was just sick and tired. So, on January 3,
1962, Henry Thomas, representing COA, came from New York. He recruited students
from Council High and Alabama A&M. He started sitting in at some of the local
lunch counters. They were immediately arrested because they had a law back in
those days that said that any merchant and any land owner that did not want you
on his property could order you off and if you didn't leave in a reasonable
length of time they could call the authorities and they would arrest you. And,
so, they did that. They
arrested these kids and that was their reason, just because the man didn't
want them there. So, they arrested these kids and we went and we bailed them
out. Dr. Cashin and a lot of other people went and signed their bonds and we
bailed the kids out and then a night or two after that we decided that we better
call a meeting. We'd get together and we'd organize and we'd form
a committee to try to continue with the demonstrations and to try to make sure we
could get these kids out of jail when they needed to come out of jail and just
to see what we could do about integrating the city.
I'll tell you a little bit about the committee first, and I'll be
looking out the corner of my eye at Dr. Ellis every now and then. We started with
what we called a community service committee and we decided that we'd have
a chairperson and two vice chairpersons and a least one of those individuals
ought to be lady. So, we worked that out. We had subcommittees in the community
service committee. We had a negotiating committee; we had a finance committee;
we had an education committee, a committee on jobs, committee on public
facilities, committee on housing and we had a psychological warfare committee.
Indeed, we would meet whenever necessary and we'd meet wherever we could.
One thing I want to point out, every single meeting we had and every single
demonstration we had was opened with prayer and closed with prayer, every single
one. Even if we had a called meeting where we were going to vote on one issue,
it was opened with prayer and closed with prayer. That's the way we
approached it. Okay, she's telling me I have five more minutes.
I'll talk to you about the leaders in the movement. We had a professor from
here on the campus, Attorney Blackwell, who was an economics and political science
professor, and he was the only one who had had any experience. He had been in
the Greensboro situation. We had Mr. Harris who was manager of the Atlanta Life
Insurance company, and Mr. Nimms, who was the owner of a local funeral home;
Reverend Ezekiel Bell, a new pastor of Fellowship Presbyterian Church, and Dr.
John Cashin, a local dentist who was an activist and made tremendous financial
contributions to this movement. I know he isn't going to say it and I hope
I don't embarrass him when I say it. He gave more money than any other 50
people in the city to help this movement. Now, you want to know how did I know,
I was the treasurer and I knew where the money came from and I knew where it
went. They had Dr. Hereford, who was a physician and an up and coming
photographer who was going to take these pictures of all the demonstrations and
everything and then one day I got up in a meeting and said that if anybody was
injured or if anybody became ill while they were demonstrating that I would take
care of them at no charge to them. We had Mr. R.C. Adams who had done a lot of
work in voter registration, Ms. Ray, who was an activist, and we had our student
leaders like Mr. Pearson and Dr. Dickerson, Ms. Frances Simms, Mr. Steel and
Mr. Benton. Is Mr. Steel here tonight? Mr. Steel has been coming to most of the
meetings.
The other thing I want to say is that it was lack of experience. We had not had
any experience and we were just sailing on uncharted waters. We didn't know
what in the world we needed to do and when we left home we didn't even know
if we'd returned home. We didn't even know if we'd have a home to
return to when we got back home. So, we had no protocol and we had no instruction
manual and no guidebooks and we were
just trying to see what we could do to try to bring about the integration. We
had a small group of demonstrators without any money and it was against the
might of the city, county and state government. We had white supremacy in the
city that were egged on by the governor and the gubernatorial candidates and
they knew that they could do anything they wanted to us and they would not have
to suffer any consequences for doing that. So, that's what we were up
against. Now I guess they're telling me I'm close to time. We went to
the mayor and we asked the mayor to integrate the lunch counter, the drinking
fountains and the restrooms. That wasn't much, was it? He refused us. He
said, ""I can't do that. They're not going to let come in and do that. They're not going to lose the customers
they've had for the last 15 to 20 years just to accommodate you people. We
can't do it."" We then asked him to establish a biracial committee. We
thought if we could get him to establish a biracial committee and have white
people and black people to come to the bargaining table and sit down and talk we
thought we could work it out. Every single move that we made was geared toward
getting to the bargaining table. We felt that if we could just get them to the
bargaining table then maybe we could coerce them into doing what was right. We
might be able to bluff them into doing what was right or we might be able to
shame them into doing what was right. Everything that we did was geared toward
that end. And so we finally got some black members and the mayor said he
couldn't find anybody white who would serve. He worked and worked and after
the demonstrations kept going, we had to boycott. When the two doctor's
wives got arrested, there was so much publicity all over the United States, then
the mayor found some white people to serve on that committee. Now,
if I could take about another thirty minutes... , I'm sorry, thirty
seconds, I'll give a little chronology about how things happened.
Our movement was 99 years after the Emancipation Proclamation, eight years after
Brown vs Board of Education, seven years after Ms. Rosa Parks, one year after
President Kennedy was inaugurated. So, January 3, we said was the first sit-in
and in February we began to start thinking about boycott. March 19th of the same
year Dr. King came, he spoke and helped solidify the community. March 30th the
restrooms at the courthouse were integrated. April 11th was when the two wives
were arrested. April 22nd, we had what we called Blue Jeans Easter and May 13th
the city parks were peacefully integrated. About the middle of May, Dr.
Cashin's mother-in-law and her friends picketed the New York Stock Exchange
and passed out leaflets. Then, on June 5th two of your professors from here and
my wife and I and Rev. Bell went to Chicago and we picketed the Mid-West Stock Exchange and
passed out leaflets. When the mayor and the City Council found out about these
things, they decided they would have what they would call a trial integration.
So, on July 9th, 10th and 11th they had a trial integration of the lunch counters
and the restrooms. In October of that same year, we filed a petition for the
school integration. In February of the next year, we filed a suit. In August,
the suit was heard and won, and on September 9, 1963, we had he first
integration of any public school in the State of Alabama, and that happened here
in Huntsville. There were some misconceptions about what was happening and it
seemed to be the consensus of opinion in these instances that some people think
that if I give you some of your freedom I'm going to automatically lose
some of mine, and you know that isn't right. Another thing,
they thought I was trying to get into the country club, and I wasn't trying
to get into the country club. I was trying to get into the library and into
Shoney's. And, the last misconception, if they had just looked at my name a
little bit closer they would have seen that my middle name was Wellington, and
not Bonaparte.
Carolyn Parker: Our next speaker, Dr. John L. Cashin, Jr. is a dentist who has
devoted his life to the struggle for civil rights for African-Americans,
especially in the state of Alabama. He founded the National Democratic Political
party of Alabama, NDPA, and was responsible for the election of the first
African-American candidate to public office. He ran for governor of Alabama as a
work pool strategy, getting other black candidates to local and state offices.
Dr. John L. Cashin, Jr., is currently president of TRP, which is critically
involved with promoting public health education and HIV/AIDS program
implementation in the economically challenged counties of the State of
Alabama's black belt. He writes a weekly column, ""Down Home,"" and he
provides for the National Negro Newspaper Publishers Association. Dr. Cashin has
worked with the The Research Institute at the University of Alabama School of
Medicine in Teenage Pregnancy Prevention research and with Dr. Emanuel Shelton
on his Detergent Diet Nutrition Program. At Alabama A&M University, he has
taught biology as well and was involved in selective enzyme cancer research for
the removal of viable cancer nutrients. Dr. Cashin is also Executive Director of
Southeast Alabama Rural Business Enterprise, which is a cooperative venture with
the Tuskegee University Department of Agriculture, a nutritional, environmental,
ecology and economic stability. Dr. Cashin is a graduate of Fisk University,
Tennessee State University and Meharry Medical College. He is the
recipient of numerous awards and citations from a plethora of local, state and
national organizations. He was the first national Omega man of the year ever
from Alabama, designated in 1971 by his fraternity, Omega Psi Phi, the 2000
Humanitarian award of excellence from the New South Coalition and the 2001
Presidential loyal alumnus and political activist award and the 2001 research
service award from Tennessee State University. Dr. Cashin is married, the father
of three children, three grandchildren and has many hobbies. He is instrument
pilot, amateur astronomer, expert photographer, and historian. I am proud to
present to you Huntsville's preeminent freedom fighter, Dr. John Logan Cashin, Jr.
John Cashin Jr.: Thank you Ms. Carolyn, that is, Ms. Parker. I call her Alma's
daughter. That was a very interesting little review that Dr. Hereford gave. As a
matter of fact, he mentioned some things that I had almost forgotten about,
bringing tears to my eyes because those were some rough days. But, we enjoyed
it; we had a lot of fun. And we knew we were on the winning side. I was supposed
to be giving something like a perspective on this movement and so forth. I was
such an active participant that perhaps I get choked up with emotion and
can't give a correct interpretation, because I would be biased. But, I did
want to quote one of my favorite people, a guy that I worship, I call him St.
Fred. I'm sure you have all heard of him. Frederick Douglas is his real
name. Actually, it was Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey, but we called him
Frederick Douglas. One of his most famous quotations is, ""Let me give you a
message about reform. The whole history of human progress shows that all
concessions made to her August claims have been borne of earnest struggle. The
conflict has been exciting, all
absorbing and, for the time being, putting all other tools to silence, it must
do this or it does nothing. Where there is no struggle, there is no progress.
Those who profess to favor freedom and yet deprecate agitation are like men who
want crops without plowing up the ground. They want the rain without the thunder
and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar that's many
waters. Now this struggle may be a moral one or a physical one, or it may be
both moral and physical, but it must be a struggle for power concedes nothing
without a demand. It never did, it never will. Find out what any people will
quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and
wrong that will be imposed upon them, and these will continue until they are
resisted with words or with blows or with both. For the limits of tyrants are
prescribed by the endurance of those they oppress, a great object lesson for
us."" That was the spirit we carried back in 1962. We were sort of like
accidental leaders because you'd have to put it in the perspective of the
fact that Alabama was the only state in the union where the NAACP was outlawed.
How many of you remember that? It was actually a crime to be a member of the
NAACP in the state of Alabama, punishable by a $1000.00 fine and a year in jail.
And that's what we were up against. Of course, that was just a little side
product of the Alabama constitution of 1901, but I'm not supposed to be
talking about the constitution of 1901 tonight, but I can go on all night on
that since that thing has taken on 700 and some amendments. 700 and how many
amendments, Joe? I'm talking to the editor of the Huntsville Times.
That's the number of amendments the Alabama constitution has. I really
don't want to get on that because it's a real sore point for me.
But now, let's get to the perspective that we had in 1962. It's funny
to me because this guy, Hank Thomas, came to my office first and said he was
tired and wanted to do a little testing. I said, ""Sure, by all means."" I thought
Huntsville was really going to be all right. I said, ""Go to the bus station
first,"" because we had already had a Supreme Court ruling. Let's tum it
back just a hot second because it's very important you understand that
because the NAACP was outlawed, we had to form our own organization, or own ad
hoc of the station that we controlled and, believe me, it's the best way to
handle it because it developed a leadership cadre that we didn't have
before and when I say a cadre, we had some pretty tough characters. They had to
be tough to undergo all of the things that we did; but we did overcome. I'm
looking at little Sonnie, Tom Cat (nickname of speaker Sonnie Hereford's Brother). I see a few other faces here that I
recognize very well from those days. It was rough, but now I'll have to
quote somebody else, a fellow by the name of A. Philip Randolph. He was the
patron saint of Randolph Blackwell. Randolph Blackwell was the economics
professor here at Alabama A&M whose students were in jail or were demonstrating.
They also were making A's in class attendance, too, but Randolph Blackwell
was a graduate of Howard University law school, that's another story, but
he was a disciple of a fellow by the name of A. Philip Randolph. A. Philip
Randolph is a character to be remembered. How many have seen the statute of A.
Philip Randolph in Union Station in Washington, DC. If you haven't, you
need to go and take a look at it because on the pedestal of this statue it gives
his credo. It says, ""At the backward table of nature there are no reserved
seats. You take what you can get and you keep what you can hold. If you
can't take anything, you won't get anything. And if you don't get anything,
you won't keep anything. And you can't take anything without
organization."" Organization, and that's what we had to do. We put together an
organization. I guess pretty much we were pledged to see it to the end. I really
think that we outsmarted them, but they did not believe, the opposition; when
I'm talking opposition I'm talking about everything white in this city
was opposed to what we were doing. The Huntsville Times had an editorial,
""It's time to call a halt."" I remember the day that R.C. Adams jumped up in
a meeting and said, ""Let's boycott the Huntsville Times."" You remember
that? Anyhow, we used several devices that got the people's attention. So,
as far as voter registration was concerned, this became a SCLC trait, too. We
had a mule that was paraded around downtown with signs on him that said ""I
can't vote because I'm a mule, what's your excuse?"" If you
remember some of the magazine articles from back in that time, that mule got
around. It was pretty good strategy.
Now, I really wanted to make a few other quotations there because it does not
pertain to what we were doing ad hoc at that particular time, but it does indeed
call attention to the struggle that's going on right now, and that's
the struggle for a new constitution for the state of Alabama. I spoke just
briefly at a gathering in Birmingham the day before yesterday at which I called
attention to the fact that we do have an opportunity. We've got a window
out of this mess that we're in and Huntsville, Alabama can be the key, and
this is one of things I'm pleading Joe Hyman, everybody, Lee Rubin,
everybody who's in the news media who was engaged in the technology that we
had. Just remember, Huntsville, Alabama is the repository. This is the
birthplace as what is known in the world of science as zero defects technology.
Zero defects technology. We
should be arrogant. We put the man on the moon from Huntsville, Alabama, and you
should understand that NASA, those programs would never have come to Alabama had
it not been for what we did with the community service committee. We
desegregated everything in Huntsville. Huntsville, Alabama was the very first
city of any size in the United States to desegregate. Huntsville, Alabama, it
was a pioneer role and it played then, it was a pioneer role that was played
when we put the man on the moon; of course, now it's Johnson Flight Center,
Nixon's thing in Texas and California, but still the repository of
technology of excellence was right here in Huntsville. As a matter of fact, when
those boys in Texas and California get in trouble, they still have to call
Huntsville. Am I right, John? So, Huntsville is probably the only city where nerd is
not a bad word. We've got more nerds per square inch in Huntsville and
they're proud of it. But in any case, I want to call attention to this
situation by giving a quote from Thomas Jefferson. His statement was, ""In
questions of power that no more be heard of confidence in man but binds him down
from mischief with the chains of the constitution."" Shall I repeat? ""In
questions of power, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down
from mischief with the chains of the constitution."" We can write a perfect
constitution with the technology; all of the world's knowledge is available
right to us at our computers and whatever we have. We can lead the world into an
entirely new phase, just starting from right here, Huntsville Alabama.
We've got the answers. It's time for us to really flex our muscles and
become what we're supposed to be. This little group sacrificed. We caught
hell but we did bring Huntsville into the focus. We can have fairness and law
and order even in Alabama because we did it without bloodshed. It
didn't happen any other place. So, I would probably rather participate in a
question and answer session. I don't have to yield any time, I don't
think I've taken my fifteen minutes. I wanted to just take more time and
just show off what kind of ego I have. No, in all seriousness, this is a
wonderful occasion. I see faces in this audience. I see green eyes in this
audience, it reminds me of... How does it go? No, not good old days, for the
wisest purposes, the creed is implanted within us, an instinctive disposition to
revere the illustrious of our kind. To win this admiration is the most powerful
incentive to action. It is the ardent desire of passionate natures. The sweet
incense of popular applause is more delicious than wine to the senses of man.
Deservedly obtained, it heals every wound and soothes all pain. The mere hope of it
will steal him against disease, neglect and oppression. To bestow this reverence
is a pleasure hardly less exquisite. While we commune with the intellects and
contemplate the virtues of the greats, some portion of their exceeding light
descends upon us. Their aspiring spirits have raised us to higher levels. But,
to yield our homage to those who do not deserve it, is to pervert a pure and
noble instinct. We cannot worship the degraded, except by sinking to lower
depths of degradation. So, Huntsville, Alabama, we cannot worship those evils of
the past. We cannot gloat that we have suppressed one third of the population
and we have gained a few little pennies here and there. We can't worship
the degraded, except by sinking to lower depths of degradation. So, to my mind,
it's the only way we can go. A perfect system, a perfect government, a
perfect constitution, all of this is within our grasp. I'd like to feel
that it started right here in Huntsville, Alabama. Thank you.
Carolyn Parker: Thank you, Dr. Cashin. Dr. Fred Carodine has a long history of
activism on the job, in the community and in his civic organization. His
indelible mark has been made on our cities, particularly in the arena of human
relations and improving the educational opportunities for minorities. Dr.
Carodine is a native of Tuscaloosa, Alabama and a cum laude graduate of Alabama
A&M University. He earned his doctorate in public administration from NOVA
University in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and completed further studies at Wayne
State University, the University of Alabama in Huntsville, California State
Polytechnic College and Alabama A&M University. During the early period of the
Civil Rights Movement in Huntsville, Dr. Carodine provided invaluable services
and funds from his entrepreneurial efforts as owner of a printing shop. As the
focus of the movement shifted around 1964 to the education arena, particularly
the integration of schools, he began to concentrate his efforts on working with
the NAACP towards satisfying this goal. Dr. Carodine has enjoyed a lucrative
career with the federal government, holding increasingly responsible positions
and retiring, about ten years ago, as chief of the operation research division
test measurement and diagnostic equipment. His community service activities have
impacted the likes of the Boy Scouts, Harris Home, NAACP, Alabama A&M University
and the Interstate Mission, to name a few. He is a deacon at First Missionary
Baptist Church, Sunday school teacher, member of Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity and
the Athletic Booster Club. Dr. Carodine is married to the former Nell Bailer and
they are parents of three sons and one daughter. I am proud to present to you
one of Huntsville's premier activists and my dear friend, Dr. Fred Carodine.
Fred Carodine: Good evening. I guess just about everybody stole my thunder.
I'd like to take the opportunity to sort of put in perspective as I saw the
movement and as I participated in some of the events that happened. Earlier,
when Mr. Ellis stood up and introduced the overall program, he suggested that
Huntsville was more interested in money at the time of the sit-ins back in
the early 60's. That is true. There were certain events, in my opinion that
helped to make Huntsville behave in a fashion that Dr. Cashin just mentioned,
there was little bloodshed. One of those events, and I'll try to make the
event oriented, was the election of President Kennedy and his choice of Lyndon
Johnson as his vice president. Now, that may not seem like much in the
beginning, but the Kennedy approach was one similar to what Dr. Hereford had
mentioned. Give them what they want. Find two or three black people who could
give and they would deliver the vote and you didn't owe them anything until
the next election. If you think I've made a mistake in that arena, if you
look in the book "" Nixon's Piano"" on page 192, you'll understand what
Robert Kennedy had said. Once he was elected... well, he was elected because of
the event of Robert calling when Dr. King was in jail. Nixon's chauffeur
told Nixon that, ""You know, we were doing all right until that call was made
about King in jail."" But, what good could that do? What it did, was that when
Kennedy was assassinated, Johnson took over his program and his efforts were
directed toward carrying out a program and maintaining Kennedy's legacy. In
that sense, he was determined that EEO would suffice in this particular city.
One of the reasons it was this particular city is because early on in 1960, NASA
had been pulled out of ABMA and the word had come down basically that we're
not going to have the kind of things going on
in other parts of the south here in Huntsville, or they would pull out. Reverend
Ezekiel Bell, Randolph Blackwell and the coordinating committee capitalized on
that in the sense that the signs that they took around addressed that issue.
We'll move the arsenal away from Huntsville. The city of Huntsville then,
was somewhat forced to listen. The population of Huntsville increased between
the 1950's and 1960's well over about 400 percent. Between 1960 and
1964 it increased over the 1960 time frame, another 200 percent. So, Huntsville
was a growing community, which could not stand to have bloodshed, if the city
founders could stop it. Earlier, one of the panelists asked, how many people had
participated in the early movement. One of the persons who raised his hand, I
hope he won't be embarrassed, was Chuck LaLange. I worked in his campaign
once years ago to try to get him elected mayor for the city of Huntsville. He
was with the Inner Faith Mission Service and I guess that's when I met him.
I guess you still are, aren't you? But anyway, there were a number of
things that took place. One event, as I said, was the fact that Kennedy was
elected. He chose Lyndon Johnson. What happened after his having chosen Lyndon
Johnson was that Lyndon put the B on the Huntsville community. Industries were
moving into the city. Each industry, according to its number of employees, paid
into a fund. That fund was handled for the most part by a committee called AHAC.
It was made up of Association of Huntsville Area Contractors. It did some good
and some bad. In the good part, it gave the black community, through some of its
more activist people, a way of expressing itself and getting it up to the city
founders. On the bad part, whether we want to admit it or not, Milton Cumming
understood the black community. He knew the black family. He knew who to touch and
who not to touch. Correct? He knew who to touch and who not to touch. And so it
was that he was going to keep a cap on everything, but it got out of hand. What
happened? During the sit-ins, both predecessors mentioned Randolph C. Blackwell.
Randolph was my next-door neighbor. We both were working out here. I was not in
the sit-ins other than the fact the Rev. Ezekiel Bell, who is my frat brother,
who the Presbyterian Church had sent here to found Fellowship Presbyterian
Church, had solicited me for the sit-ins and I told him I was willing to do it,
but I couldn't promise that I wouldn't fight back if somebody hit me.
So, he told me to collect money. My job was to try at A&M University, here on
the campus, to collect money and I would tum it over to him. At the time of the
trial integration, there were I don't know how many, one, two, three, at
least three drive-in theaters that I knew about. One was just north of us here on
Meridian, one was just south on Meridian and one on 72. My family and I were
chosen to go to the one on 72. That's the one we integrated. We went there
to integrate but by 1964, after the Herefords and so forth had integrated the
schools, something happened. I'm sorry, it was 1965. The NAACP legal
defense fund after the NAACP, Dr. Cashin was allowed back into the state of
Alabama had an interest in this particular area. There were several people who
had worked with the NAACP during the time frame that was outlawed. They kept it
alive underground. Among those people were, Reverend Lacey and James Pickett, at
least those are two that I can remember. They became presidents of the NAACP.
About 1965, a young man came to Huntsville named McKinley Bailey. One of the
reasons Mack and some others came to Huntsville was this organization, AHAC, was
trying to get minorities on board, so they claimed, as employees. The problem
that came
to industry was, we need black engineers; we can't find any. Well of course
you couldn't find any. Dr. Hereford just explained why you couldn't
find any. There had never been any black engineers that could be hired. So, why
would a black person go to an institution and take engineering when there was no
job market? There were no black engineers, or very few. McKinley Bailey was one
of the few. There were one or two others. But, every time, they went outside of
the state trying to find employees, nobody wanted to come to Alabama. They
didn't want to come to Alabama for several reasons. One, there was no
housing. Two, they'd heard about the city and other things that were going
on here. Now, they bring in this man, McKinley Bailey. There's another man,
Les Jackson, who, in Mobile, had tried to bring us and for whatever reason, he
had put them off but finally, he came up. But what McKinley Bailey did was to
become president of the local chapter of the NAACP. Now, there were not that
many NAACP members, not near as many as there are now. The NAACP was a viable
organization, ready to fight. It was composed of McKinley Bailey, Fred Carodine
and Ed Russell. But very seldom did they show up at meetings. But, the strategy
that was put forth was to try to integrate the schools with contacts with a
legal defense fund person who is a regional director, Allen Black. Allen
Black's office was in Memphis and we were tied in, I believe, the guy at
the Justice Department's name was Schira, I believe that was his name. But
what happened then was that we began to move to try to get the schools
integrated more fully. The city proposed one grade at a time. We did not go
along with that at the time. The information that we had received was that
we'd make our input to the legal defense fund and we'd communicate
with the Justice Department. So, when we did not buy that, we of
course would end up sometimes later instead of going one grade at a time, which
the city had proposed, they had to integrate three grades at a time.
The other big issue was one that had been raised about pay. Black teachers did
not make salaries the same as Caucasian teachers. As a consequence, a number of
the engineers and scientists that were moving into Redstone who were males, of
course their wives were Caucasian, were working in the various predominantly
white schools and of course they were making more money than the black teachers
who had degrees and credentials for Alabama. Some of the Caucasians did not have
credentials because they had not taught in Alabama and they had not satisfied
Alabama's criteria. And so it was that even though they were on a Type B
certificate, they were making more than the black teachers. Well, what happened,
once you had to integrate you had to do what? Integrate the salary. So, as we
begin to work that particular problem two things happened. If they were
considered a very good black teacher in that particular school wherever they
were working, they were moved to a predominantly white school. The others were
allowed to stay where they were. The Caucasian teachers who were being hired and
who were just corning out of college, for the most part, went to these
predominantly black schools. As a consequence, we had a program that was started
by the federal government, called EFFA, which was supposed to help elevate these
schools that were behind. All of a sudden, a number of Huntsville schools were
behind. They were behind because they put minority students in the behind
group and they could get money from the federal government to sustain this.
Let me move a little off. There are one or two things I'd like to mention.
Also, about 1963, there was a student from Alabama A&M named Carl Bailey who
went into the city of Huntsville and requested to become a policemen and that
was a no, no. They told him they didn't have any janitorial jobs. He said
he didn't come to be a janitor; he wanted to be a police officer. Well, he
was later hired, our first black policemen. Bailey, a John Christmas and the
late Reverend Huggins, they put them all in a car. They were not to arrest a
Caucasian person, but they could only go down into predominantly black
neighborhoods. Well, the dispatcher would get on and say, ""Now, you go down to
that Negro area and do so and so."" Well, they got a little tired of this and
they went in to see Chief Spurlock. Spurlock fires them and now the paper had
played up the fact that they had hired these guys, now all of a sudden they had
to get some more policemen. So they sent out to A&M and got two people,
Holyfeld, Staten and finally following that they got a guy named Aaron Wright.
They replaced those three and after having replaced those three until this year,
this is the first time that a black police officer in the city of Huntsville has
ever gone beyond the entrance position of patrol. I don't mean a whole
other job, but Huntsville promoted a sergeant this year and it's the first
time. That is a disgrace, thirty-some years. I know my time is up and I yield.
Carolyn Parker: Our next presenter will share with us his perspective as a
student activist. Mr. William Pearson was probably Alabama A&M University's
most committed member of SNCC during the early 1960's, along with Ms.
Frances Simms. He made many sacrifices in his personal life in order to follow
through on the very demands of the life of a student activist. Mr. William
Pearson is a graduate of Parker High School
in Birmingham and entered Alabama A&M University in 1958. As the Huntsville
movement developed, he could be found working with practically every aspect of
the movement, strategy sections, sit-ins, marches and other demonstrations, all
of this while at Huntsville, but he was also heavily involved in the sit-ins and
marches in Birmingham. Mr. Pearson later earned his degree in history from
Alabama A&M University and continues his dedication to the betterment of our
city through his work with our youth. He teaches and coaches at Davis Hill
Middle School, has a long list of successes producing championship teams for our
Parks and Recreation Department and the YMCA. Mr. Pearson is cofounder and
vice-president of the Alabama Lasers, designed to develop the talent of young
men, 12 to 17 years of age who are interested in basketball. Sponsored by Nike,
Inc, this organization finds scholarships for young people who want to go to
college. When asked, ""What's in it for you,"" he replied, ""I don't want
anything. My greatest reward is to see these young guys turn out to be decent
men."" Mr. Pearson is married to the former Selena Pollard and the father of two
sons, Christopher and Reginald. I present to you, ever the activist and
community servant, Mr. William Pearson.
William Pearson: Fellow panelists and audience. You know, I started to write
stuff down but when you're talking about something like this, it's
from the heart. It comes from here. As a 17-year-old college student, raised in
Birmingham, Alabama, never went to school with a white guy. My graduating class
had 450 students. Later on, they talked about buses. I thought everybody was
bused. There were only three high schools there. They bused people from all over
Birmingham, four thousand five hundred of us in one
school. We graduated two times a year, January and May, and then usually in the
9th and usually in the ninth senior. When I was about 15-years-old, I had a job at a bowling alley. Getting
off one evening, a policemen stopped me, told me, he said, ""I want you to stay
out of my alleys and off of my streets."" I had to quit my job. I couldn't
work. I came up at a time where I lived at the bottom of what they called
Dynamite Alley, Dynamite Hill, where Arthur Shores was a lawyer there. I went to
school with his daughter. I also went to school with Angela Davis. We were
always aware of what was going on. We were just waiting for a time. Some of us
went to the left, some of us went to the right, but we were always aware.
Hank Thompson came here at the foot of this hill, called a group of us in and said,
""Hey, you know what they're doing in Greensboro and you know what the
students are doing all over the country. What are you going to do?"" I said
we're going to do what we have to do. We were committed to making something
happen. We were committed to doing it in a nonviolent way, afraid, yes, because
you never knew. I had a guy tell me one day; He said, ""Brother, you don't
know what it is to be black."" I said, ""Brother, I was black when black
wasn't cool."" You know, afraid, went to jail, I forgot the times, ten,
twelve, fourteen, fifteen; I don't know. I had the record, that's
right. I remember one time Ms. Joan Cashin who was our advisor, you see they
had their committee and we had our committee; that was our lady, loved her,
bless her. We would meet and we would decide what to do and we would go to these
guys. This is family here. They took care of me. The little bit of a man that I
am they helped to mold that. I had no parents here; they were dogging my parents
in Birmingham. My mother said, ""I don't know if you should be doing this,""
but daddy was an ex-marine. He said, ""Son, do what you got
to do,"" and that's exactly what I did. I don't need much time. The
only thing I can say is that I did what I had to do and I did it from my heart.
But, you young guys, they are there, out there now. There should be more of you
in this audience to understand and to realize what this world is coming to. What
we marched for and what we fought for, if you don't go out and get some of
your fellow students together, you're going to be on the back of the bus like I
was. You're going to be drinking colored water like I drank. I had fun in
school, but you have to be committed to make things better. I see my wife out
there, Selena, it's 28 years, and my son, Reginald is a 7th grader at Ed
White, which was an all white school when I did this, straight A student. So now
I know I did it for a reason. Thank you.
Carolyn Parker: We set aside a few moments for questions and answers, or I
should say questions and responses, so if you would like to address anyone on
our panel in terms of asking a question, I recognize you now. I saw this hand first.
Q: (inaudible)
A: The school system hasn't made any inroads to improving the school
system. I had the opportunity of meeting with a lot of young men. I see them on
the street and they said they stopped school at sixteen. It's something
being done about the GED. The GED is going to be changed the beginning of the
year and what is the movement, what is the struggle. There is no gain without a
struggle and there is no gain without any pain. I participated in quite a few
things here on this campus and I'm surprised to see the low attendance.
What can we do to get more people involved? What can we do about pro ration with
what's going on right now. We're worried about terror, and I grew up in
Louisiana, Mississippi and the south and, like you said, the things that went on
in New York, black people grew up and lived in that terror. We still live in
some of that terror. We talk about anthrax. We've got to start doing
something about what's going on on a daily basis and I think that this
movement and this struggle have to come to the young people. The older people
participated in the NAACP. I participated in a drive and come to find out
there's sixty to seventy thousand black people here and you have less than
three hundred to five hundred people participating. Where does the struggle go
from here; I don't know.
Carolyn Parker: Okay. First, I'll say you did make some valuable
observations, but
these gentlemen will try to answer your questions.
A: Well, I'm going to try and answer it like this, plain and simple.
We've got to have a new constitution in the state of Alabama. That is the
root of the evil here. I would say that the NAACP, or any organization in the
state of Alabama, needs to be working very hard for a new constitution
convention. That is the basic medication I would prescribe to this illness we
have and I think it's very good advice considering the experience and the
professional education that I bear. Without a new constitution, there is no way
that we can continue in the state of Alabama the way that we have. It's got
to be changed. It's got to be brand new; and, of course, I may sound like a
broken record, but that's it.
Carolyn Parker: I saw a hand right here. They say it's impolite to point
but that's the only way I can designate the person.
Q: My question is simply people are so headstrong to oppose anything, whatsoever
other than when they have a concern about NASA at Redstone Arsenal. What brought the
white people around? How could they have changed without? I know what white
people can do and black people too, when you get so headstrong you're ready
to, ""I won't do a thing they tell me,"" and to bring those people around and
in two or three years, you're talking 1962 through 1965, how did they come
around like that? I can't believe it.
A: I'd like to answer that. It's one of the few I can answer. It was
economics. It was the boycott. It was the boycott that really, really, brought
them around and we decided to have the boycott, we had workshops; I had that
included in my papers, but they wouldn't let me talk to you about it. We
had workshops on how to conduct a boycott. You don't call a merchant and
tell him if you don't do such and such a thing I'm going to boycott
you, you let that guy go. Then, Christmas or Easter, let him buy his stock and
buy all of his stuff and then you tell your people, don't go down there and
purchase anything from him. The first thing he knows, he's got all of this
stuff on his shelves and he can't tum it into money and he's got to
pay the bank for that money that he borrowed. That was what did it. The boycott
was more successful than you could ever believe. I just found out about it later
and Dr. Cashin's wife and I discussed it and I know what she said was right
and the things I thought were right. We had at least five groups of people that
were participating in that boycott that I didn't know about when it was
going on. We had about ninety-five percent of black people that were absolutely,
positively not going to buy. We had another group of white people who were in
the labor union and we had picket lines and they would not cross our picket
lines. We had some white people who came down there to jeer us; we had some
white people who came down to cheer us and we had some other white people who
just didn't come to the city of Huntsville because of
the commotion down there and so that over-compensated for that other five
percent of black people that didn't buy. It was the boycott that really,
really made them come around.
A: Not just the boycott, but there's a little stunt that we put on there
too. We had almost
simultaneous demonstrations, Chicago Board of Trade and New York Stock Exchange.
Picket lines. Don't do business in Huntsville, Alabama. It's bad
business. That made the New York Times and that word got out all around the
world. That just showed most of our potential. That's all. Apparently you
had another part to your question?
Q: How did you handle the hot heads, the ones who were ready to break in?
A: They were not allowed to join our organization. Oh, you're talking about
the white people?
Q: The white people, how did they get put in their place?
A: What do you mean, ""Put in their place?""
Q: How did you stop them?
A: We were prepared to take whatever, they did not, as I recall we only had one
incident of violence with Evelyn Sawkowski. The word was out to the city
fathers, if that's what they could be called, there was to be no violence.
That doesn't mean they're going to keep that. If you look in the paper
when Sonnie Hereford, IV went to school, the first time he went he was turned
away. Governor Wallace had set up... that's another story too... yes,
that's another story, but what happened was the city fathers wanted the
money and were not about to let Spurlock and his group get out of hand. There
was a soldier who came up with his invalid child and he wanted to go to school,
even though a black
kid was going to school. There was another lady who told the police that, yea,
they said, ""we don't want you to start any trouble, just go on back home.""
She said, ""You're making the trouble."" But that's because of the city
fathers. They didn't want it either. They contested it. They sent letters
to representatives and everything. The point was they wanted that green dollar.
Carolyn Parker: I think William wants to address that.
A: Yes. They tried everything they could, including coming to the school,
getting with the governor and telling us they were going to put us out of school
if we marched. The main thing is if you're committed to something and
you've committed to doing it a certain way; we were committed to
nonviolence. They knocked one girl off of a stool. You know, the mind is a
strong thing. There were people there jeering but when you show no fear, and
then they never wanted to get in the newspapers, so they had to keep it down,
the city fathers had to keep it down. They didn't want it in the paper.
A: There was a little humorous twist there. One of the ways that we were able to
see to it that the crowd didn't get out of hand is on our first
demonstration we had members of the Alabama A&M football team with the signs.
They were some burly guys. Wonder why they wouldn't be fool enough to
tackle them. That was the initial march we had, big, burly six foot three, two
hundred and fifty pounders. Even the redneck would take his chance on something else.
Carolyn Parker: Okay. I saw a hand here first, and then the next one. Right
here, young lady, you'll be next after this gentleman.
Q: Could you tell me the difference between socioeconomics for the minority
groups in this community now as it was then? I don't see many black-owned
businesses in this community. Could you explain that?
A: We've got some black millionaires in this town. We've got quite a
few as a matter of fact. Yes, they're quite a few doing well. I'm not
one of them, but I know a few.
Carolyn Parker: This young lady, then Ms. Deshield.
Q: How did you deal with it? I can't imagine trying to go to school and
having people treating me like that? I know you all were close and you talk
about being committed, but there has to be more to it than that.
A: How did we relieve the stress, is that what you're asking? Now for our
students, and this was Dr. Cashin's wife's idea, she said, ""I think
about every three or four weeks we ought to have some entertainment for these
students and when these students are out here protesting and marching and
demonstrating, we ought to give them something to look forward to that
they're going to be doing,"" so during our movement, the real active part
was about seven months, we had two dances, we had three parties and we had a 4th
of July picnic for the students, so we kept something for them to do and they
always had something to look forward to.
Carolyn Parker: William, would you like to address that?
A: We had a lot of fun too. We had fun together. You know, we were all close
friends and when we partied, we partied hard. We demonstrated; we demonstrated hard.
A: I'd like to say something else to. I'd like to say something about
the closeness of that group. Some of my fraternity brothers may not like for me
to say this and some of my
church members may not like for me to say this, but I've been on a lot of
organizations but I have never been in any group that had a greater closeness
than that group, and more love and respect for each other than that group that
we had.
Carolyn Parker: Okay. Ms. Deshields had a question.
Q: I want to commend you, Dr. Ellis, for the inclusion of my name in your report
and I did write the Acquisition of Civil Rights in Huntsville, Alabama from 1962
to 1965. My question and concern is that I have no documentation about this. You
have not done any research on it, but you made the statement that Dr. Drake was
forced into retirement by Governor John Patterson. I was a student here at A&M
at that time
A: I know that story very well. Yes.
Q: You're agreeing with it or disagreeing with it?
A: The way Patterson treated Drake.
Q: That he forced him into retirement.
A: Yes, he was forced into retirement without any doubt. As a matter of fact, it
was during the sit-ins and John Patterson said that he was going to name a
president who would make those children study and make them behave, and to
really follow on his path, he named the wrong man.
Q: I did see John Patterson in a subsequent meeting in Birmingham many years
later and he had done a 180 degree tum and I could see in my lifetime that transition.
A: A whole lot of them have done ISO-degree turns. George Wallace was in 438
when he changed his mind.
Q: Well, one final statement, Carolyn. That is that my recollection of Dr.
Drake's retiring was based on the loss of his health and that forced him to
retire, but I may not be accurate on that, but I'm raising the question.
A: He was ill and in the hospital when the sit-ins broke out and that is when Governor
Patterson decided that he would fire Drake and name a new president, and he
named Leon Bonner. Leon was president for about three days I recall. Let me make
one comment with respect to that. It is my understanding at the time that Dr.
Levi Watkins and Dr. Drake were under fire. There should be a letter where Dr.
Drake sent a letter to Watkins telling Watkins to stand his ground, to use his
words. Dr. Drake became ill with meningitis, if I remember correctly, and during
his illness, I don't know if he died out of office or if Patterson fired
him. No, Patterson fired him. But, it is due to his illness, in my opinion, at
the time. That's what we received. I don't know if it is true.
Patterson made the public statement that he was going to fire Drake and he was
going to get him a new president that would make those children behave and make
them study. I just want to confirm what Dr. Cashin said. Most of that
information is from the Huntsville Times and, in fact, according to the
Huntsville Times, Dr. Drake heard about his forced retirement on the radio. He
didn't even know it was coming. He was deeply hurt by this and the
quotation that Dr. Cashin is referring to is that Governor Patterson said that
he wanted to hire a new campus administrator who said, ""Will require discipline,
make the students behave themselves and make them study."" Furthermore, in an
about face, the Huntsville Times generally either ignored some of the
demonstrations or put them on the
third or fourth page. In this case, they had a very lengthy editorial denouncing
the governor for this mistreatment of Dr. Drake.
Carolyn Parker: Okay, we'll take three more questions. I have this lady and
there was
a lady in the back and this gentleman here.
Q: My name is Peggy Bavenovich and one of the questions I have, I saw that
excellent movie that's been made of the whole experience of Huntsville and
my question is, are you saying there were no idealistic whites in Huntsville
that supported you?
A: There were some idealistic whites that did support us. As a matter of fact, a
great contingent came out of the Unitarian fellowship but so far as real active
participation, a few from the Human Relations Council were with it, but the
Unitarians were probably the strongest bunch of all. So far as the local whites
are concerned, a lot of us had white friends, but they didn't want to get
exposed. As a matter of fact, we had some difficulty getting membership in the
biracial committee, but in the final analysis, there were two merchants, I guess
you could call them business people that did indeed support things behind the
scenes. One of them was Woody Anderson. I guess Woody would have conniptions
if he knew I was discussing him. You see, Woody owned the Kings Inn, and that was
one of the first places that opened up, and the other guy was Boots Ellis who
had Boots Lounge down on the Parkway.
Q: How about newcomers?
A: Newcomers, the newcomers pretty much stayed on their own. They were pretty
much here for business, and we had lot of engineers. They were very busy getting
ready to put the man on the moon and when John Kennedy said we're going to
put a man on the moon
by 1970, he gave Huntsville the job and we did it by 1969. But we were a very
busy community. Then, of course, Sputnik was up there beep, beep, beeping so we
were really under the gun. So, we didn't want to rock the boat, but we were
not going to allow the same things to be in place. There were some very, very
dedicated whites; I have to admit that, but so far as locals who were concerned,
there was a narrow few.
Before you say that, I'm glad she mentioned the movie. I had planned to
make this commercial and they didn't tell me to say it or not to say it.
Tom, would you bring it up here please. She mentioned the movie. Evidently she
must have liked it. How much are they? $20.00, $50.00? No, $30.00.
Q: How can we as youth realize the struggle that is current. Many of the
students at A&M have no idea about this Civil Rights Movement because we were
looking for it. We attend Oakwood College and our pre-law found out about this.
Many students don't know what's going on so how can we get motivated
and be informed on these kinds of forums that are taking place?
A: Sessions like this. She didn't know about the program, is that what
she's saying? Well, that is not surprising to me at all. As a matter of
fact, if you will flick on this printed program, I'm not on there.
Carolyn Parker: Okay. We have a question right here, the former president of the college.
Q: I have been greatly inspired by the wonderful tales given by the gentleman on
this panel. I admire their report and what they did over the years. For the
second time in the last four days a visit of Dr. Martin Luther King to
Huntsville was mentioned.
Dr. Hereford, I think is an expert on that. He mentioned it tonight. It
didn't have a relationship to what the committee and group were doing in
Huntsville. He inspired the Oakwood audience where he spoke. He gave us a
preview of his ""I Have a Dream"" speech where he gave it at Oakwood first, went
up to the Washington Mall and inspired the leaders of the nation and we know
what happened thereafter. I would like to have
Dr. Hereford, if he will, enlarge on the effect on Huntsville.
A: Dr. Minette, it's all right here in this folder. They wouldn't let
me tell you about it but now they can't hold me down in the question and
answer session. We had about four or five hundred demonstrators that would
demonstrate regularly in January, and then nothing was happening. We
weren't getting any concessions at all and so after about six to eight
weeks the participation dropped off. And then in one of those sessions,
Dr. Cashin, Mrs. Cashin, Randolph, Blackwell and I and all of us, somebody said
that ""We ought to get a dynamic speaker to come to Huntsville and speak and see
if we can bring our people together, solidify the community and bring some of
these people back that we have lost and maybe get some white people to come and
join us in our demonstrations."" So we kept thinking who in the world can we get
and then Dr. King's name came up and somebody said we'll invite Dr.
King. We had a committee that was going to invite Dr. King and I think that Dr.
Cashin was probably the chairman or one of the people on that committee. We had
to figure out where we were going to get the money to pay him and his
lieutenants and so forth. He came March 19th and spoke at First Missionary
Baptist Church, downtown, and then he spoke at Oakwood College gym that night at
8 o'clock. He had to speak at Oakwood because there was nowhere else in
town that they would allow us to have Dr. King. You see what I mean? There was
very good security at Oakwood and I appreciate that, the way it was fixed up at
that time, and that's when Dr. King came. After he left, the community did
show signs of being solidified and also some white people joined our movement
and the mayor found two white people to serve on the biracial committee when Dr.
King left. Does that help to clarify it a little bit?
Carolyn Parker: Okay. We do need to adjourn this session. I realize there are
other questions, but we promised that we wouldn't hold you too long. Let me
also remind you the next session, next week, will be at the University of
Alabama in Huntsville, Roberts Auditorium, and I would certainly be remiss if I
did not acknowledge our Director of the Alabama Humanities Foundation, Mr. Bob
Stewart. Just wave Bob. Bob came all the way from Birmingham to support this
project and, as you well know, we received a grant from the Humanities
Foundation for this program, among other contributions. Let me again thank you
and I've been so delighted to moderate this panel. All of these guys are
very, very special to me and it has just been special to me to do this. Please
join us for refreshments in the back sponsored by the State Black Archives
Research Center. Don't forget your evaluation forms. They'll be in the
back holding them up. Hold on, Dr. Ellis wants to make one more point.
Jack Ellis: I just have one more point. He spoke about Dr. King's speech.
We have excerpts of Dr. King's speech. Thank you Carolyn.
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University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives, Special Collections, and Digital Initiatives, Huntsville, Alabama",,"Lecture Series on Civil Rights in Alabama, 1954-1965
VHS Tape of: Huntsville During the Civil Rights Movement - Speakers Sonnie W. Hereford III, John Cashin Jr., Fred Carodine, and William Pearson, 2001-10-25.Box 2, Tape 7
University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama",,en,"This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,46,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,http://libarchstor2.uah.edu/digitalcollections/files/original/32/13348/HuntsvileDuringtheCivilRightsMovement_Tape7_File8.pdf,,"Lecture Series on Civil Rights in Alabama, 1954-1965",1,0